Thursday, June 6, 2013

Joseph Gautier dit Saguingoira

Posting Member: Jenn with Mark and Jake's notes
Topic: The Possibility of Algonquin
Family Name Associations: Gautier, Gauthier, Gautier dit Saguingoira, Saguirou, Maxoumitimousens
Location: Home
Mood: Mentally zapped.
Music:


Bear with me...  This is going to be a long one. (I actually ran out of time on the transcription, so this is two days worth of work!)

I have been avoiding the French records that are literally starting to take over my desk, my filing cabinets and my floor in one or two piles.  Finally, I decided enough was enough...  Time to enter the information on my lines and get everyone back to France that we have researched and plotted lines for.  A job that isn't easy, but I'd been striking out left and right over the Irish, and I have to do something beyond study companion planting while I wait to see how this years squash crop is going to turn out.

I'd worked through Chabot, Moreau, Dube...  And about 15 other lines.  I was feeling productive, smart and maybe a little sassy.  And then I traced back Marie Louise Gauthier.  She was the daughter of Pelagie Leduc and Joseph Amable Gautier, who in turn was the son of Marie Rose LaLonde (That'll circle back into my LaLonde line sooner or later, more fun!) and Joseph Gautier.
Joseph's parents were named Marie Clemence Jarry and Joseph Gautier.  This is where all hell broke loose.

I googled.  Silly, I know, but we randomly run searches for everyone we research in case something fun and exciting happens to pop up.  Joseph's parents were supposed to be named Charlotte Roussel and Pierre Gautier, and Tanguay made a note about his full surname being 'Gautier dit Sanguingoria'.
I've now seen the surname spelled Sakingoara, Chaguingoira, Saquingorra and a few other variations.  On the the first posts I found was this:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/gauthier/messages/3814.html

Victoria asked if there was any truth to the post, and got reply that said the poster didn't think it was possible...  And he provided a birth list which is absolutely not clear at all.  This sent us immediately looking at Tanguay's own list...  Which quotes 7 children.

1.  Jean 28 Sep 1669 - Marie Suzanne Capeisueca
2.  Francoise - Christophe Bertin
3.  Joseph 20 Mar 1672 - Clemence Jarry and Marie Fortin
4.  Jean Baptiste 8 May 1674 (Then later Tanguay has a birth of 1664 as well.  We're suggesting Jean Baptiste was born in 1664 and was baptized in 1674 at this point) - Marie Marguerite Prezot
5.  Pierre 25 Mar 1679 - Anne Marie Boicleau
6.  Marie 23 Apr 1684 - Alexandre Turpin
7.  Francoise 26 Nov 1686 - Francoise Lecompte

Then we discovered this Message Board thread:
http://boards.ancestrylibrary.com/thread.aspx?o=0&m=2721.1.2.1&p=topics.ethnic.natam.nations.metis.metisgen

Oy!  So, Martin Carriere who was writing on that thread wrote this book:
  http://www.amazon.com/Carrying-Chalice-Forward-Stories-America/dp/1935786091/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

He also claims that Charlotte Roussel and Pierre Gautier adopted 'Jean and Joseph' children of Joseph Saguirou and Agnes Maxoumitimousens and with the other researchers on that board, they give us a ton of information about the children and family in question.  Martin also claims to have DNA proof that this adoption occurred from descendants - I'm guessing there are highlights in his book.
According to Lynn Allard there are 10 children recorded by the now defunct Gauthier Genealogy.  However, the list that she provides has Jean Baptiste born in both 1664 and in 1674 marrying the same woman, Marie Marguerite Prezot - Leaving us still short one child and somewhat confirming that Jean Baptiste is the same child in 1664 and 1674 no matter who his parents were.

Missing off of Tanguay's list seem to be Anne and Claude, but still, that's only 9 children so I'm not sure how people keep counting 10 children.

I find this link, to a site we're vaguely familiar with because we've seen it come up in searches before...  Mostly in searching for the Canuel lines.  I've never really read it before, it's on my to-do list!
http://www.agt.net/public/dgarneau/gauth1.htm
Claiming 10 children. The Jean Baptiste information is the same...  Two men and two women with identical names?  9 children.  1 Baptized twice.  That's my story, I'm sticking to it.

And then...
http://www.telusplanet.net/dgarneau/french20.htm
Hmm.  So he knows about Martin's theory, but is suggesting there are multiple children with the same names. I'm no closer to answering Victoria's question or any of my own at this point...  So I drag Jake and Mark into it all to look with me.

Right away we find this article on Ancestry which looks to have been translated from French, written by Jean-Pierre Gauthier from the Gauthier Genealogical Association with included text from Genealogical study (circa 1940) prepared by Father Alphonse Gautier C.S.V.  Again, this Association seems to be defunct, we can't find anything but references to it and the website link is dead.  I will add the link here in case it makes a reemergence.  I'm going to include point form notes of everything the article covers and the dates, because it's all a part of our on going investigation.
http://association.gauthier.est-ici.org

Pierre Gautier dit Saguingoira

- In Lachine there's a municipal park with a small house set up called 'The Settler's House' with a bronze plaque honouring Pierre as a settling colonist.

- Pierre was born in 1629 in the village of Eschillais in Saintonge (Today's Charete-Inferieure), son of Marie Boucher and Jacques Gautier.

- He immigrated to Canada in 1667 towards the end of summer, and had a marriage contract in the beginning of Nov 1668.  3 Nov 1668 a contract is signed by Francois Bailly, Master Mason, and Jacques Daoust.

- 12 Nov 1668 Pierre marries Charlotte Roussel who was from La Ronde, Evreux, Normandy.  Pierre is 39 years of age, Charlotte is 22 and her Father, Thomas is deceased.  Signing for the Bride was Abbots Gabriel Souart and Domonique Galinier, for the Groom was Jean Gervaise, Jean FaguĂ©, Mathurin Martin.

- Pierre has an established homestead and farming operation in Lachine.  He supplies the Church with a yearly tax for the land he farms and agrees to have his corn ground at the mill and maintain the public road for his rights to this land.

- For the first time in 31 May 1671, on a contract for land Mr. M. de Queylus refers to Pierre Gautier as dit Saguingoira.  He will use this 'nickname' for the rest of his life and sign legal and Church documents with it (Which is highly unusual for just a nickname, priests would normally disregard such a title).  Records in 18 Nov 1671 (Business/Sales) and 20 Mar 1672 (Joseph's Baptism) both show the same name.

- On the Census completed 14 Nov 1681 he is registered at Verdun and has 10 children.  The age of the first 5 children is erroneously increased by 2 years.  Also in residence is 'Jean' aged 50, the author feels this is Jean Fagret, who is Pierre's friend and who signed his marriage record, and who was Pierre's neighbour and may actually own some of the concession of land being farmed.  Pierre is responsible for 25 acres.

- 10 Jul 1684 Pierre receives the commission of guarding the goods of Antoine Roy dit Desjardins and of Julien Talus dit Vendamon, the first being murdered by the second over his wife having an adulterous affair.  Then on the 29 Aug there is an ordinance by Jean Gervaise prohibiting Pierre Gautier from providing Anne Godeby with food or any other thing while she's in prison 'for her part in the crime'.

- 18 Jul 1684 Jean Fagret makes a donation to his godchild Anne Gautier (Daughter of Charlotte and Pierre) of a dwelling in Lachine, all movable goods and 2x20 acres of waterfront land.  Jean makes provisions that Pierre can guard Anne's inheritance until she's of age, that a yearly religious service is held for his soul, and that all his debts are collected and paid.  Jean Fagret makes this donation because he is headed on the dangerous voyage of accompanying Mr. de la Bar on an expedition.

- 1681 the sacrament of Confirmation for 'Jean Gautier, 14 years old' by Monsignoir de Leval of Quebec.  Author suggests an error in age, that Jean is actually 12.

- 1688 Anne (12) and Pierre (9) receive the sacrament of Confirmation.

- 12 Feb 1689 Anne Gautier marries Jacques Denis, solider of the company of Mr. de Cruzell from Fort Duval.  Jacques secures a 6 day leave, having not met his required 12 years of service yet.  The marriage contract stipulates the newly weds will remain in the household of Pierre Gautier for three years.

- 4-5 Aug 1689 The Lachine Massacre.  1400 Warriors from 5 Nations of Native Americans extract revenge upon the Governor of Canada, the Marquis Denonville, for his campaign against the Iroquois to reduce their population and ultimately for their inhumane treatment.  They decimated houses, farms and land, and killed families in their retaliation.

- The Gautier family is not listed on tallies of the dead or captured for Lachine, and yet both parents have been captured and are missing within days of the event.  Jean Fagret is killed.

- 26 Feb 1690 there is the sale of Jean Farget's land to Jacques Denis.  Because Jean Fagret had returned from his voyage healthy, his earlier provisions had been cancelled and Anne could not inherit.

- 13 May 1690 Jean Gautier dit Sanguingoria signs up for an expedition with the sieur Leon Batanchon dit LaLande.

- 7 May 1691 J. B. Pottier Notary of Lachine becomes manager of the affairs of the 4 minor children of Pierre Gautier, Pierre (12), Claude (9), Marie (7) and Francois (4).  The record notes that Charlotte and Pierre have been taken or killed by the Iroquois.

- 19 Jan 1692 the birth of Jacques Denis junior, son of Anne Gautier and Jacques Denis.

- 22 May l692 Jean Gautier dit Sanguingoria signs on for another engagement with the sieur Batanchon dit Lalande for a voyage to the fort at Michillimakinac, then another one on 2l August.

- 10 Sep 1693 Joseph Gautier dit Saguingoira makes a contract for an engagement for one year to bring a boatload of goods to M. de Louvigny, a Navy Captain at Fort Michillimakinac.

- 9 Dec 1695 Pierre Gautier, 16 year old son of Pierre, takes an engagement for two years with Raphael Beauvais for domestic work.

- 22 Jan 1698 Mr. Dollier de Casson, superior of the Messrs deSaint Sulpice and his associates lease a concession of 60 acres with the profits going to the children of Pierre Gautier Sanguingoira who is quoted as being 'A prisoner of the Iroquois, our enemy' (Notary J. B. Pottier).  There is a continuation of this lease again on 13 Oct 1698.

- Pierre Gautier returns from captivity without his wife Charlotte.  It is unknown where or when she died.

- 16 Aug 1699 Joseph Gautier dit Saguingoira marries widowed Clemence Jarry and his father signs as a witness to his marriage.

- 23 Feb 1702 Pierre is recorded at a religious ceremony to establish a mission for the daughters of the congregation of Our-Dame.

- 25 Feb 1702 Pierre is a witness for his daughter Marie's (18 years old) marriage in Montreal to Alexandre Turpin (Widowed and approximately 60 years of age).

- 10 Mar 1703 Pierre divides his belongings between his children.  120 acres of land with 3x40 acres along the St. Lawrence River.  Jean Quenet and Pierre Barbary dit Grandmaison are named executors of the process and lots are drawn to divide the land.  Jean is absent being with the Outaouais,  he is represented by Mr. Remy the priest of Lachine.  Joseph acts for himself and his older brother Jean Baptiste.  Joseph also acts on behalf of the younger children as their tutor.  Anne Denis dit Saint Denis is represented by Francois Gantier, Lieutenant of the Navy and neighbour to the Denis family.
On the same day, Pierre, Joseph and Joseph as the siblings representative (Jean Baptiste, Marie, Claude, Francois) sell their lot to Jean Massiot.  11 May 1703 Francois Gantier sells Anne Gautier's share to Jean Massiot.

- 8 Sep 1703 Pierre has been bedridden in his son Joseph's care.  In the morning he receives the Sacrament of Last Rites and makes up his will.  Pierre asks to be buried in the new church with mass said for him.  The second part of Pierre's will is lost to us.

- 5 Dec 1703 Pierre Gautier dit Saguingoira dies suffering from fever.  He is buried in the Church of Lachine Cemetery the next day.  He was 74 years of age at his death.
At his burial were his son Joseph and his wife Clemence Jarry, Joseph's step son Antoine Rapin, Pierre's daughter Marie, and his son-in-law Jacques Denis.

Additional notes:
Mother, Father and 3 additional children in the family of Marie Marguerite Prezot (Future wife of Jean Baptiste Gautier) died in the Lachine Massacre.
The first Lachine Cemetery was abandoned in 1708.

Still with me?
After all that, there are changes to the list of children that we have to make.

1.  Jean 28 Sep 1669 - Marie Suzanne Capeisueca
2.  Francoise - Christophe Bertin   There's no mention of Francoise anywhere but in Tanguay's Dictionary.  For now, we're going to assume she died or was an error - Jake's going to find the marriage record from 1697 if it exists, but I think it's an error.
2.  Joseph 20 Mar 1672 - Clemence Jarry and Marie Fortin
3.  Jean Baptiste 8 May 1674 (Then later Tanguay has a birth of 1664 as well.  We're suggesting Jean Baptiste was born in 1664 and was baptized in 1674 - To really throw a wrench in it all we found a record for 1671 confirming his parents as Joseph and Agnes, seriously...) - Marie Marguerite Prezot
4.  Anne est. 1676 - Jacques Denis Saint Denis
5.  Pierre 25 Mar 1679 - Anne Marie Boicleau
6.  Claude 15 Apr 1681
7.  Marie 23 Apr 1684 - Alexandre Turpin
8.  Francoise 26 Nov 1686 - Francoise Lecompte

But there still are not 10 children in this family!  We're going to have to try and get a hold of the 1681 Census that those kids are listed on, but I wasn't under the impression such census records were detailed enough to make a difference.  Perhaps there were 10 people in the household, and it was confusing for the editor...

Mar is of the opinion that finding a different record for Joseph is necessary to prove he might have had different parents.  He says he can see how Jean Baptiste might be actually the child of Agnes and Joseph... But he's concerned about claiming Joseph as their child because we can't seem to find any working proof.

I guess the plan is... to keep collecting records.  Make some notes in the tree, but enter the Gautier line through Pierre because there is just nothing else we have as proof.

4 comments:

mMerlin said...

I've been reading the Closet Skeletons posts, but not doing anything with the the information. A Dead web site though, I had to checkout. Feeding
http://association.gauthier.est-ici.org
to the "WayBack machine" at http://association.gauthier.est-ici.org finds 66 snapshots of the web site. All of the recent ones are just redirects to
http://famgauthier.ifrance.com/
which is also now MIA. However that web site has a valid snapshot, with real data, as of May 9, 2008 starting from
http://web.archive.org/web/20080509124645/http://famgauthier.ifrance.com/

Hope that gets you some useful information.

CSGS said...

You're brilliant. Thank you SO much! Anything at this point is helpful, I have to believe the more we know, the more we'll be able to pin these boys to the right parents! :D Thank you!

Victoria Holly said...

Hello I am the Victoria of the post you refer to. I am a direct descendant of Pierre through his son joseph. I think I have finally figured most of it out and was a little surprised at a finding 2 Gauthiers married a few gen removed to bring this tree together . I have never had anyone answer the question of paternity of the 2 sons of Pierre so I can only assume it was speculation.

Closet Skeleton Genealogical Society said...

Hello Victoria!
I did personally speak with Martin about his research, he has a new book coming out soon. Our conversation did not clarify the boys parentage, and I'm still convinced we don't know the whole story. I also took a DNA test, what a confusing time that has been!
At this point, if 'Middle Eastern' dna is coming up as Native, it's probable that not only Joseph was native, but so was my Great Grandfather Auguste Canuel. If I really am Adygei, Iranian Jewish... There's so much more going on in my tree that I'll ever be able to figure out. Either way, thanks so much for commenting :)